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ivewonyoung | 166 comments

modeless|next|

I tried the reverse recently, charging my Model 3 at third party CCS chargers with adapter (and CCS compatibility retrofit). It is bleak out there. The chargers are few and far between, half of them are broken, and even the ones that aren't broken have compatibility issues so they may not work anyway. The required apps are unreliable and annoying.

I remember 5+ years ago Superchargers were a lot less common and also frequently broken. But those days are long gone. Tesla has really figured out reliability and maintenance, and there are plenty of stations for all but peak times. And the charging experience couldn't be simpler, park and plug in, unplug and go. No tap, no app. Crazy how no one else could figure this out.


epistasis|parent|next|

We had some visitors to California from out of state recently, and the rental car place gave them an electric car (not Tesla), without basically any education about how to deal with them.

I'm a huge fan of electric cars, and will probably never buy anything except EVs in the future, but man are you right that the non-Tesla experience is bleak.

Charging was incredibly stressful. Few CCS chargers, each with a tiny number of charging spots (4-8), with many chargers broken, and the rest fully occupied.

I know it will get better, but I can't believe how bad it is at the moment, and can't believe that car rental companies are handing EVs out without much much more handholding.

(Edit: plus, the car navigation system had zero knowledge of how to plan a long route with charging. That's table stakes for an EV, and criminally bad management that they'd ship a car that didn't have full knowledge of the chargers out there and also how to route. Traditional US car manufacturers are absolutely incompetent and will not survive competition with Chinese manufacturers unless they clean house on everything software related.)


jessriedel|root|parent|next|

> Traditional US car manufacturers are absolutely incompetent and will not survive competition with Chinese manufacturers unless they clean house on everything software related.

Legacy American car companies have been fully non-competitive with foreign brands for decades. Their continued existence is completely due to tariffs, and it’s not close. I see no reason to think congress would suddenly allow them to be threatened by Chinese companies.


Aromasin|root|parent|next|

For those who aren't aware it's a 25% tarrif, so most manufacturers don't bother even trying to sell in the US. That's why almost all European/Japanese brand cars are 30+ years old over there.

I find it entertaining when my US colleague come visit and are amazed at all the options. I drive a new Toyota Hilux, and they weren't even aware they made them anymore. For a country that once prided itself on being the land of the free market capitalist, it's a shame the decision makers are so scared now of competition.


throwawaymaths|root|parent|prev|next|

Moreover it's not clear how long china will be able to continue subsidizing the electric cars the way they do.

reaperman|root|parent|next|

More subsidies than the $7,500 per vehicle subsidy that the US government gives for our EV vehicles?

ywvcbk|root|parent|next|

To be fair you can’t really use this type of subsidy for price dumping in foreign markets like China is doing in Europe and would love to do as well in the US.

Geezus_42|root|parent|prev|next|

I mean, we already nailed them out once.

badgersnake|root|parent|prev|next|

Hertz walked back their big bet on EVs. They don’t make good rental cars. For day to day use where you can charge at home or go to places you know they are great.

For long trips to unfamiliar places, not so much.


reaperman|root|parent|prev|next|

> Traditional US car manufacturers are absolutely incompetent and will not survive competition with Chinese manufacturers

Oh they won't have any trouble. They may lose international market share but the US government will keep raising tariffs ad infinitum to protect the US automakers no matter how far behind they get, or how expensive the vehicles get. We already are giving them 100% tariffs against BYD/etc. You might think that's absurd but the steel industry has received tariffs up to 266% against Chinese steel, so there's a lot of headroom left to continue to price out international competition.

There's really no pressure for the US automakers to do better or innovate or actually compete.


ywvcbk|root|parent|next|

Chinese companies can do the same thing Toyota and a bunch of other European and Japanese brands did.

Open factories in NA and make their cars here. If the US companies are so incompetent they should still be able to outcompete them while paying several times higher wages and not getting any subsidies from the CCP.


jahewson|root|parent|prev|next|

It’s shocking. I’ve had a non-Tesla electric car for about 5 years and the public chargers have always been garbage. The new ones are garbage too. If they do finally work, they charge at 1/4 the quoted speed. I had free charging for a while and even that was not enough of an incentive to use it.

short_sells_poo|root|parent|next|

Same experience in the UK. Just within London you have a dozen charging networks, they all have their own shitty apps, they require you to add your credit card and create an account and half the time they simply don't work and just give you some garbage error message like "charging failed".

Don't even get me started on Oxford. We arrive to a charging station and it turns out it is exclusively for electric taxis. No mention of this anywhere online.

It boils down to trial and error, and then remembering which specific charging points tend to work. For a completely new piece of infrastructure with no legacy cruft, the industry has made a complete and utter mess of it.


jasoncartwright|parent|prev|next|

This situation sounds like Europe (& the UK) two or three years ago. Plentiful well maintained, fast and convenient chargers have sprung up since from a wide variety of operators (electricity companies, oil companies, startups, plus Tesla).

We standardised on CCS a while ago.

Many chargers are even faster than Tesla Superchargers whilst supporting the plug-and-charge standard ISO 15118. They are often surprisingly cheap too.


zelos|root|parent|next|

I was surprised just how good charger provision is in Europe. On a recent 1600 mile road trip we never had a problem finding 350kW chargers. There were always plenty of spaces free and I saw one broken charger the whole time - it maxed out at ~70kW instead of 230kW - but I just moved to the next charger in the row.

__m|parent|prev|next|

> Crazy how no one else could figure this out.

Tesla obviously didn't figure out how to do it with third parties either. It's about cooperation and politics, not so much about the technical implementation.


tw04|parent|prev|next|

>The chargers are few and far between

Where are you that the CCS chargers are few and far between? While I agree it's annoying to have to potentially use multiple apps if you aren't in a car that has a consolidation play (like fordpass), there are far more CCS chargers in the states I've visited than Tesla counterparts.

With gas station chains like Pilot, 7-eleven, Wawa, Circle-K, and others building out their own networks, and Tesla firing basically their entire charging network staff, non-Tesla chargers will only continue to grow at a faster pace than what Tesla has to offer. At least we've standardized on J3400 plugs so we can (hopefully) move away from the game of "do you have the right adapter"?


modeless|root|parent|next|

I guess it's more "few" than "far between". There are a decent number of locations in e.g. grocery store parking lots but they usually only have 2-4 fast chargers and one or two are broken. So you'll show up and someone got there before you and took the last one. Meanwhile I don't think I've ever seen a Supercharger with fewer than 8 stalls and many have 20+.

pkulak|parent|prev|next|

Well, for another anecdote from the PNW, there are dozens of combo chargers in the 300 miles North of me and 6-8 in the 300 miles south. They seem to mostly work, more are going in, and old, unreliable ones are getting swapped out. It’s not perfect, but it’s fine for me. Of course, 99% of my charging is at home.

hackernewds|parent|prev|next|

Crazy how Tesla vastly outperformed the govt investing billions into making 8 chargers

epistasis|root|parent|next|

The government investment is just getting started with deployment, and frankly waiting to standardize on NACS instead of deploying with CCS was the smart choice, even if it delayed deployment by a year or so.

NACS is so much better and having a single standard will smooth out so much in the future.


kristopolous|root|parent|next|

But globally it's not a single standard. I believe with NACS, the US once again, sits alone, like it does so often.

Basically every other country is doing CCS, the US was deploying CCS but then the government said "nah, let's go with this other one".

I remember when I saw companies switching to it, I seemed to be the only person who thought it was a bad idea.

On the side of International Standardization it's me, a couple crickets, and a bunch of people telling me how wrong I am.


tw04|root|parent|next|

That’s not really accurate. Europe uses CCS2 which is completely different and incompatible with CCS1 which is what we have in the US. Recently the US agreed to move to J3400 for dc fast charging with the expectation CCS will eventually go away. China uses a fourth standard GB/T which is incompatible with any of the above.

kristopolous|root|parent|next|

Right, China and Japan are different. Here's an older map: https://insideevs.com/news/333637/european-ccs-type-2-combo-...

The US went NACS instead of CCS2. Canada and Mexico haven't made a commitment either way.

It would be nice if we could work together and do just one in the same way that we didn't have to worry about fuel pump nozzle geometry being country specific with ICE cars.


tw04|root|parent|next|

> fuel pump nozzle geometry being country specific with ICE cars

But they are? Diesel nozzles in the US are significantly larger than in Europe.


grzm|root|parent|next|

In my experience, there are at least two different Diesel nozzle sizes in the US, and both are different from gasoline nozzles.

https://exchange.aaa.com/automotive/car-care-repair-and-main...


toast0|root|parent|prev|next|

US Diesel cars before about 2013? didn't really care aboit nozzle size. Some diesel pumps had the old standard nozzle size; some had the new, smaller, nozzle size intended for unleaded gasoline. VW started putting in anti-misfueling devices into their cars (via recall for mine), and then you could find which stations had unleaded sized nozzles because it was hard to use those. Presumably, nearly all of those have been replaced with the old standard size.

But then truck stops have giant nozzles for the giant tanks on semi trucks. Those won't fit in a regular car.


kristopolous|root|parent|prev|next|

I didn't know that about diesel. Regardless, I was hoping we could find some agreement globally .

mattmaroon|root|parent|prev|next|

What do we need it for? Are you driving your car across the Atlantic? We don’t have an international standard for what side of the road to drive on.

Being something you practically always don’t take with you when you travel, as long as we’re standardized by continent what would even be the benefit?


prmoustache|root|parent|next|

Except sometimes campers.

There are still people doing world trips. We might collectively decide they need to keep using diesel forever or stop doing world trips with vehicles altogether but that is still currently a thing, even though it is very very marginal.

Also, the USA has borders with 2 countries with I imagine people crossing the border daily on both side to simply go to work. It seems weird to me that these 3 countries would not talk to each others about standards.


spookie|root|parent|prev|next|

Ease of manufacturing and export of vehicles globally.

Also, with everyone on the same standard, all companies have an incentive to optimize their hardware to accomodatte it.

It might not be that important short term but it is on the medium to long term to complete a proper transition.


kristopolous|root|parent|prev|next|

I think cars will be more commodified internationally as EV efficiencies continue to drive the prices down and new lower cost tiers for different vehicle classes open up.

This has certainly happened in China and arguably manifests itself as scooter/motorcycle culture in places like Taiwan, Vietnam and Indonesia. (In Shenzhen, the scooters were almost universally electric when I was there last month)

Imagine the container-ship car - packed efficiently and treated like any other international good that can be ordered online.

The manufacturer produces them ready for the world market in 2 technical variations, right and left - everything else is personalized. (The motorcycle avoids even the right/left problem) Essentially I don't think we're at the end game of the Toyota Production System.

So it's more about being compatible with a vision of how we'll be interfacing vehicles 10-20 years from now. That's when making these decisions wrongly will really start to bite us - after the infrastructure is rolled out and long established.

Or who knows, by then there might be an even newer plug and we'll all be on a single system.


yieldcrv|parent|prev|next|

I have a Mustang mache specifically because of the Tesla supercharger authorization and compatibility

It’s still bleak-ish, but is right on the cusp of getting better

Tesla’s schizophrenic behavior makes the promised adapter to have an unknown delivery date

The bootleg adapter works decently, tricky at first though

I had to learn there are multiple versions of tesla superchargers, and even of the V3 ones they are not all the latest version that I’m supposed to use. This is undocumented.

Then, of ALL of them, the charging cable is too short and in the wrong place for my vehicle. I have to take up two spots unless I’m next to another vehicle with my ‘affliction’, rare

I dont want a Tesla I want the supercharging network

Now, knowing all these things and altering my life just a little bit around the local ones, things are great

CSS charging stations are pathetic and often have long lines, while the Tesla stations are massive, don't have a line, all while an additional doubling is occurring in a roped off section

Fortunately, you don't have to supercharge and its ill advised to do it often.


phkahler|prev|next|

>> Future GM vehicles will come with Tesla’s charging port natively installed.

This makes me happy. I worked on "standard" charging infrastructure for a while and those plugs are fv*king heavy and clunky by comparison. Also talked to an old Ford guy I worked with years ago who was involved in the standard development process - he seems content to "understand" what the politics and compromises were to the extent he couldn't look at the thing and say "this sucks". Going beyond the physical clunkiness: There is no reason to have a powerline PHY in there. None. It's stupid and costs extra and isn't even used on the high power conductors.


gwbas1c|parent|next|

This just feels like VHS vs. Betamax. VHS won because it was the better format, but Betamax fans took a value out of context and kept whining about the loss for years.

(VHS was better. Not only was it cheaper, Betamax's smaller cassette meant that feature length movies used a slower tape speed than VHS, negating claims of a better picture.)


actionfromafar|root|parent|next|

Must resist... nitpicking... no I can't. Betamax originally didn't sell tapes which could record more than 1 hour. So people couldn't tape movies onto a single tape, but had to use 2 tapes.

What I really came to say is that the current reality is worse. In this analogy, not only did BetaMax win, neither BetaMax nor VHS came to Europe, but instead Philips 2000 won there. (US Teslas don't fast-charge in Europe.)


BobaFloutist|root|parent|next|

>US Teslas don't fast-charge in Europe

This is going to be deeply frustrating when they finally build that tunnel across the Atlantic.


jsight|root|parent|next|

It won't be that bad. Adapters are simple for this case.

electronbeam|root|parent|prev|next|

Or the bridge to russia

darknavi|prev|next|

Great step. NACS is so nice compared to CCS 1. Can't wait for this to standardize and EV charging stations to stop being so novel.

PaulWaldman|parent|next|

This still feels a long way off. I have yet to encounter a charger, not made by Tesla, that has an NACS plug.

bluGill|root|parent|next|

Everyone in the US has committed to NACS in the next couple years. The others are aware of this and if they are not completely stupid making plans. They will probably support CCS for a while in some form, but they will be doing NACS in the near future. It might be like regular/premium/diesel fuels - pumps support more than one hose (though wire is more expensive than a hose).

peutetre|root|parent|next|

> They will probably support CCS for a while

NACS is CCS with a different plug on the end. Tesla's charging standard is to die off, CCS will be the standard going forward.

Here's a real world demonstration of a charger with J3400 plugs (aka Tesla's plug):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI

It works on a Chevy Bolt because it is CCS.


rconti|root|parent|next|

So what does this mean for a Tesla on an NACS charger? Do they already support CCS over that port, or is it a software update?

I know Teslas were already CCS in Europe, so I wouldn't be surprised if the software is already basically there.


theluketaylor|root|parent|next|

Tesla version 3 superchargers already use CCS for communication between car and charger for 2019 and later vehicles.

Version 2 superchargers do not speak CCS and won't ever be opened to non-Tesla vehicles and there are certain routes where that's quite annoying. My most common road trip has 5 supercharger locations along the way with 3 of them being V2, including the most isolated charger. Even once the NACS changeover happens taking a non-tesla on that journey will be a real pain.

Tesla has not put any resources into converting V2 sites into V3s. Some of the locations have been expanded with the new additions being V3, but I haven't seen much in the way of switchover.


ericd|root|parent|next|

Now that it's open and standardized, you'll probably see tons of third party charging stations with the NACS plug. Tesla's part in bootstrapping charging infra to make EVs viable seems to be mostly done.

bryanlarsen|root|parent|prev|next|

Older Teslas (approx 2019 and older) need a hardware update.

rconti|root|parent|next|

Damn, ouch. Seems crazy that they're now in the position of breaking supercharger compatibility with existing cars.

theluketaylor|root|parent|next|

No compatibility break as far as I know. I believe V3 superchargers speak CCS to 2019 and newer cars and fallback to the older Tesla-proprietary communication if necessary.

bryanlarsen|root|parent|next|

Sure, but some Tesla owners are going to be surprised when they pull up to a third party charger with a Tesla plug that doesn't work on their car even though it plugs in.

maxerickson|root|parent|next|

Only ~once.

A little bit of pain when there aren't that many vehicles is fine if it makes things quite a lot better going forward.


matthewdgreen|root|parent|next|

I just scheduled the upgrade for my 2018 Model 3. It’s not free, but only costs $280 and they do it in my driveway. Rumor has it I might get a CCS adapter out of the deal too, but I’m not sure. It’s an older car but still going strong, and my biggest concern is that if I don’t do the upgrade now they’ll run out of upgrade kits and the car’s value will be permanently damaged even if it lasts another ten years.

modeless|root|parent|next|

Yes, you get a CCS adapter bundled for no extra charge with the retrofit. I just had mine done.

jsight|root|parent|prev|next|

There's a huge wave of chargers building over the next 24 months. Many will have NACS.

MBCook|root|parent|prev|next|

Either EA or EVgo just deployed their first one in the last few weeks.

browningstreet|root|parent|prev|next|

That is the definition of the current state.

Fortunately for the future state, they can be changed.


flurie|prev|next|

I'd seen some rumors that Tesla has been trying to slow down onboarding of other automakers to their charging network, so it's good to see information to the contrary.

I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run. They did not charge licensing fees for the connector, and even if they charge a premium to charge non-Tesla vehicles, now owners of Tesla vehicles are going to run into situations where a Chevy Bolt has to double park to use a Tesla fast charger at <=50kW, doubly driving down utilization.


fiftyfifty|parent|next|

Tesla actually had $1.74 billion in revenue from its charging network in 2023, Bloomberg estimates that they probably made about 10% profits from that or $174 million. They are predicting that to grow to $7.4 billion in revenue by 2030. In my neck of the woods many of the Tesla superchargers I see are empty most of the time, presumably adding 3rd party vehicles is a way for Tesla to increase it's profits on their already built out network. Of course Tesla is still adding to their network but presumably as that investment decreases and the fact that they are charging more for non-Tesla vehicles, their profits will increase. It seems like it's turned into a nice little side business.

https://insideevs.com/news/715644/tesla-supercharger-network...


hackernewds|root|parent|next|

The impact of selling fewer cars due to the chaos of standing in mall lines waiting to charge is going to be a net harm I think to Tesla in the long run

gpm|root|parent|next|

Solved by continuing to expand the network. Just like we have sufficient gas stations, except chargers should be a hell of a lot cheaper to build than gas stations given the latter's environmental constraints.

JanSolo|parent|prev|next|

> I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run.

They're expanding their customer-base by maybe 2x or more. Those new customers will be be giving recurring payments to Tesla. For vehicles that Tesla didn't build. How is that not favourable?


losvedir|root|parent|next|

Tesla doesn't break out the details, but I think it's generally understood among investors that they just break even on Supercharger. Their profit comes from their cars, and the Supercharger network was a competitive advantage to get people to buy the cars.

I think they opened up the Supercharger network to ensure that the US didn't establish CCS as the standard and overtake Superchargers, such that Teslas have a competitive dis -advantage, but I don't think they're particularly thrilled to have all these other companies using their chargers.

People seem to think they're raking it in with the Superchargers, but distributing electricity is a low margin business. Same with gas stations where the money mostly comes from the convenience store part of it and such.


BurningFrog|root|parent|next|

> they just break even on Supercharger

So far, sure, but that can change. When most customers are non Teslas, it makes no sense to keep prices low.


bluGill|root|parent|prev|next|

Gas is lower margin than the other things in a convenience store, but they sell enough more gas than anything else that much of the money is there. I haven't checked in 10 years, but at one time I did read the share holders information from a convenience store and for that brand it was about 1/3 gas, 1/3 tobacco, 1/3 everything else. Tobacco is very high margin but very few people buy it. The everything is is a nice high margin, and most people buy, but they don't buy every trip. Gas is what gets people in the doors and often is all people get.

cbhl|root|parent|prev|next|

This goes both ways -- historically the other charging networks were J1772 or CCS (with a few CHAdeMO to support Nissan Leafs), but now Electrify America, EVgo, etc. have been retrofitting or newly installing a mix of CCS and NACS cables onto their L3 chargers. This increases the available charger footprint for Teslas as well.

metal_am|root|parent|prev|next|

Where I’m located, Supercharger prices are ~4x business electric rates. That’s something like $15 profit per charge. No idea on infrastructure costs or usage though.

secabeen|root|parent|next|

Business electric service often has a demand charge in addition to the usage rates; superchargers could easily incur a lot of cost on that element.

matthewdgreen|root|parent|next|

Tesla’s entire business revolves around batteries. They have a huge opportunity to install batteries onsite that spread usage over times when high demand charges don’t apply. There’s some loss in that, but still could make sense if demand charges are really high. I’ve been waiting to see Tesla roll something like this out, but presumably it’s not pressing right now.

kwhitefoot|root|parent|prev|next|

Tesla chargers are CCS. It's just that in the US they use a different plug, in Europe Tesla chargers uses CCS-2 connectors.

Sohcahtoa82|root|parent|next|

> Tesla chargers are CCS.

This is misleading and not entirely true.

Older Tesla chargers did not use CCS to communicate. My 2019 Model 3 doesn't support CCS at all. When I plug into a Supercharger, it's not using CCS to communicate with the charger, it's using Tesla's proprietary CAN bus protocol. Teslas made before 2021 need an ECU retrofit to support CCS.


kwhitefoot|root|parent|next|

Pretty much all the old Teslas in Norway have been retrofitted to allow them to connect to CCS only chargers as far as I can tell. Had mine (2015 S 70D) done years ago when it became clear that future Tesla chargers would be CCS only.

linotype|root|parent|prev|next|

Almost no Teslas were manufactured pre-2019 vs post-2019.

jsight|root|parent|next|

I think between 15 and 20% were build pre-2019. The number of non-CCS is actually on the higher end of this, as component shortages caused quite a few to be built without CCS support in 2020.

wlesieutre|root|parent|prev|next|

The downside is that when people are considering which car to buy, Tesla has enjoyed their charging network as a strong selling point that other automakers don't have

aniviacat|root|parent|next|

But they gain the selling point that charging Teslas is cheaper.

alamortsubite|root|parent|next|

How much will owners of other manufacturers' cars pay for electricity at the Superchargers, compared to those who have Teslas? The article doesn't mention this (or I missed it). I'm curious to know what this adds up to over the life of a car.

bluGill|root|parent|next|

Short term it will likely be the same - Telsa has the most chargers, but they do not have a monopoly and they will be forced to charge the same to all just to compete.

wlesieutre|root|parent|next|

Most places it's not like gas stations where there's 3 on the same block and they all have exactly the same price all the time, people are going to stop at whatever charger is located where they need it and pay whatever the price is as long as it's within reason.

kelnos|root|parent|next|

A quick search suggests there's around 145,000 gas stations. This article mentions Tesla has 17,800 supercharger stations. I didn't care enough to look up the station counts for the other EV charging companies. But that Tesla figure is around 12% of the gas station total, so let's say the total number of EV charging stations is somewhere between 15% and 20% of the gas station total.

I could easily see EV charging stations approach the level of saturation of gas stations in the next 10 years.

Yes, today people are going to stop wherever there's a nearby charging station. But that's going to change, and fairly quickly.


scld|root|parent|next|

Is that gas pumps or gas stations?

If there are an average of 4 to 6 pumps per station, EV has a lot longer to go.


seanmcdirmid|root|parent|prev|next|

> 17,800 supercharger stations.

Did they mean 17,800 supercharger units or 17,800 locations with super charger units. Because I've seen those numbers interchanged before.

The problem with chargers (and I say this as an EV owner) is that many people mostly charge at home, so they aren't using them even weekly. However, everyone goes for a road trip say around memorial day, and the EV chargers are PACKED. It is just a huge disparity between normal and peak usage. Or you go on a road trip and you need one in the middle of nowhere Idaho on the way from Seattle to Yellowstone.

Thankfully L3 charger units at least are cheaper to buy/install/maintain (in theory, if people didn't think the coords had copper worth scrapping) and can be installed in more locations than gas station pumps (like super market parking lots).

Given the disparity in peak usage, it makes sense, at least, to compete on availability rather than price, since even if you are paying $60 to charge up, it is only a few times a year. It is much more important that the chargers be where you need them, and to have free units when you need them, oh, and they should be working! ... than to be the cheapest price.


peutetre|root|parent|next|

> Did they mean 17,800 supercharger units or 17,800 locations with super charger units.

They mean 17,800 DC fast charging plugs open to GM cars (and say so in the article). Tesla has 2,397 DC fast charging sites (or stations) in the US and a total of 27,711 plugs.


toast0|root|parent|prev|next|

> can be installed in more locations than gas station pumps (like super market parking lots).

I get a lot of gas in supermarket parking lots, several supermarket chains put gas stations in the parking lot of some stores.


seanmcdirmid|root|parent|next|

You need a lot of things for a gas station, a giant tank under ground, a run off collection system for the spilled gas/oil, they have to be covered these days, I’m sure most of this is just environmental regulations. You only see them in the grocery store parking lot if they have all of that, it’s not just a few pumps put up at existing parking spaces (well, maybe in Thailand).

bluGill|root|parent|prev|next|

The is true today. However EVs are becoming more common and chargers are being built. In a few years chargers will be more common and have to compete on price. Today Tesla can get away with charging more to some customers - those people will figure it out though and eventually they will have enough options that they can go elsewhere. It is hard enough to brand gasoline (you can have a brand specific additive package most don't but they do exist) electrons are even more identical.

aniviacat|root|parent|next|

Tesla has enough time to get brand recognition for cheap charging, even if it gets less relevant over time.

Even when chargers become more common in cities, there will always be some places like smaller villages or long roads where you only have one option; that option possibly being a Tesla charger.

So even if it loses significance, the difference will still be there. And maybe it will be sufficient to retain Tesla being known for being cheaper long-term (because of charging).

Whether that's realistic: I don't know.


kelnos|root|parent|next|

> Even when chargers become more common in cities, there will always be some places like smaller villages or long roads where you only have one option; that option possibly being a Tesla charger.

Sure, and that's exactly the case for gas stations today, and I'm sure the lone gas station on the long stretch of road has more pricing power than the one in the middle of a city with competition.

And yet gas stations don't charge based on what kind of car you drive. Tesla shouldn't be permitted to do so either, as this market develops more.


kelnos|root|parent|prev|next|

Something I hope is legislated away in the future. Can you imagine if the norm was that you got a different price for gas at gas stations depending on who owns the gas station and who manufactured your car?

notpushkin|root|parent|next|

If my car comes with a gas station’s loyalty card I don’t really see a problem.

itsyogesh|parent|prev|next|

The secret lies in the route planning and not the chargers. EV Charging is a discoverability problem, not an infrastructure one. Tesla knows this very well, and just giving access to this infra isn't going to take away anything from them.

ellisv|parent|prev|next|

> where a Chevy Bolt has to double park to use a Tesla fast charger at <=50kW, doubly driving down utilization

I’ll have you know my Bolt EUV can get 53, maybe 54 kW, for 5, or maybe 10 minutes, thank you very much.

But seriously while the max Bolt charge speed is rather slow I rarely ever fast charge. We recently took a road trip that required multiple charging stops and it was fine.

I understand it could be inconvenient for drivers who have cars that with a higher charge speed who could have to wait but I’ve never encountered this.


flurie|root|parent|next|

I'm on my third (long story) Bolt, I would pick it three more times if I could, and I'm certain that I've sold more Bolts than most GM salesmen, so my comment was more familiar snark than anything. I have done the trips into minimally friendly locales and spent longer than is wise at a Tilted Kilt with small children in order to ensure a healthy buffer for a trip home. This news is nothing but upside for me personally. Perhaps we will encounter one another at a Tesla charging station one day!

phkahler|parent|prev|next|

>> I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run.

This will allow the rest of the charging infrastructure to become Tesla compatible. That may reduce the load on Teslas network, which they only built so their EVs could go cross country.


bluGill|root|parent|next|

More importantly, there are not a lot of chargers. Gas stations are on every important intersections, chargers are much less common and only rarely in places as convenient. (part of this is charging takes longer and there is the expectation the people charging are willing to go a little farther to find someplace where there is something else to do). As electric cars become more common every car manufacture needs to be able to say you can get anywhere with no worries as there are chargers. Tesla can get you across the country but you often have no choice where you stop to charge - if you pass a charger at 25% charge you are likely to run out a long way from any charger, while if you pass a gas station at 25% fuel you can probably pass several dozen more before running out and then are close to a station (more than walking distance, but an easy hitchhike) There are exceptions - I've been in remote areas where gas stations are that far miles apart, but they are rare, while that is still normal for EV charging outside of cities (and inside of a city you are more likely to charge at home and thus not care).

gwbas1c|root|parent|next|

Uhm, that's no longer true. There's a lot of new charging stations.

This summer, I drove from MA to Washington DC and every other rest stop had chargers; sometimes multiple brands. I also drove from MA to Montreal and there were plenty of chargers.

Basically, every time I needed to pee there was a charger 5-10 minutes ahead of me. Plugged in, went to the bathroom, and then I had more than enough charge to go to the next bathroom.


maxerickson|root|parent|next|

There can be enough chargers without them being anywhere as prevalent as gas stations.

In this rural area, there's generally more gas stations near the chargers than there are plugs at the chargers (like within a 1/2 mile or whatever).


bluGill|root|parent|prev|next|

Depends on where you travel, I travel a lot in the west. Gas stations are not as common. I'm glad and not surprised to hear denser parts of the us are getting reasonable charger density as well.

devilbunny|root|parent|prev|next|

... in the most densely-populated area of the country.

Within one mile of my house, I have access to 4+8+12+10+8=42 gas pumps.

There are 129 "public" chargers total in my metro area, and a decent number are at car dealerships (presumably mainly for use for vehicles left there for service) or hotels (overnight stays). I don't know how actually public the chargers are.


peutetre|parent|prev|next|

> I'd seen some rumors that Tesla has been trying to slow down onboarding of other automakers to their charging network

It's more simple. The delays have been because Musk threw a tantrum and fired the whole supercharging team:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside...

> I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in the long run

Standardization gives Teslas more access to more chargers. It will also drive up utilization of Tesla's charging network because more cars will use more of Tesla's chargers more of the time.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg...

Tesla's chargers have been open to all brands for a long time in Europe. Here's a Kia charging on a V4 charger with no app and no Tesla account just as Nature intended:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yflZN0dLT8s

Tesla is just one charge point operator among many in Europe. Tesla's chargers are behind the state of the art. They still don't work well for 800 volt cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8

The Cybertruck is an 800 volt platform and charges faster on Electrify America than on Tesla's own chargers:

https://x.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331

EV charging standardization in Europe has driven investment in and deployment of charging infrastructure. The US has 193,000 public AC and DC charge points:

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/09/americas-ev-charging-infra...

Europe has over 900,000:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41466853


mensetmanusman|parent|prev|next|

Tesla go was to speed the adoption of EVs. They succeeded.

IncreasePosts|parent|prev|next|

No licensing fees, but they are charging a premium for non-Teslas to use the superchargers.

wlesieutre|root|parent|next|

No licensing fees to use the connector but do we know they didn't pay any fees for access to Tesla's chargers?

EDIT - at least in Ford's case they've stated that they aren't https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/29/ford-tesla-supercharging-par...


LargeWu|root|parent|next|

As a non-Tesla EV owner, I would happily pay surcharges for charging on Tesla's network if it meant I could reliably use my vehicle on extended trips out of town. Tesla charging network has a very good reputation for reliability, which is a primary concern if I'm traveling on the highway. It's not something I do often, so paying a premium once in a while to use my EV instead of my ICE vehicle seems like a decent tradeoff.

kelnos|root|parent|next|

Ugh, please don't take this stance.

Gas stations don't charge different amounts for gas depending on the type of car, and EV charging stations shouldn't be permitted to do so either.

I don't have an EV, but I agree that Tesla has a much much better reputation for reliable, working charging stations in the US. If people will actually pay more for that experience, then sure, Tesla can charge more than a competing charging company. But they should be required to charge the same amount regardless of vehicle.

The only exception to that, I think, is that they should be able to charge differently based on charging speed, which is related to the type of vehicl. All gas cars will fill up at more or less the same rate, but with EVs it depends on the battery technology and the car's electrical system. Taking up space at a charging station for a longer amount of time to consume the same amount of energy is a cost to the operator (and an annoyance for anyone waiting in line), and it seems reasonable to charge for that. So I think it would be fair to charge $X/kWh + $Y/min.


Sohcahtoa82|root|parent|prev|next|

There was someone on a EV Road Tripping group on Facebook mentioning how they took an EV from Florida to New Jersey and talked about how awful it was.

The top comment said something that every EV enthusiast knows. There are two wildly different charging experiences: Tesla, and everyone else.

Can you have a good experience with a non-Tesla? Sure! But with a Tesla, having a good experience is nearly guaranteed. With anyone else, it's a gamble.

You go to a Electrify America or some other charging network location, and you'll likely find only 2-4 stalls, and likely 1 or more of them are broken. Go to a Tesla Supercharger, and there's usually 8-16 chargers, all working. Even with a broken stall (It happens), you've got more available. And with so many stalls, and so many locations, it's exceptionally rare to get to a charging location and finding all of them in use.

This last week I took a road trip in my Model 3 from Portland to San Diego. 2,400 miles round trip. Never ran into a charging issue. I did see that a couple locations had a stall that was out of order, but with so many stalls, it wasn't an issue at all.


idontwantthis|root|parent|prev|next|

Do you have a source showing they are charging higher prices for non Teslas?

emilecantin|root|parent|next|

This is common knowledge. I don't have a link to send you, but I've just looked up the closest supercharger on the Tesla website and it charges 0.55$ / kWh for NACS vehicles, while in my Tesla app the same supercharger shows 0.42$ / kWh.

Peanuts99|root|parent|next|

Seems strange, in Europe where Tesla chargers are open to all CCS2 vehicles, the prices are the same for everyone. On most chargers you can just tap your payment card to start the charge, although I think you can get cheaper rates as a member too.

connicpu|root|parent|prev|next|

I feel bad for people who can't charge at home. I get to charge at my residential 11.5¢/kWh. Though I don't go far from home very often so I've never charged anywhere else. If I wasn't getting this rate the savings over gas would get a lot narrower.

Sohcahtoa82|root|parent|next|

As much of an EV enthusiast as I am, I tell people that if they can't charge at home, don't get an EV.

I'm in a similar boat, my electricity is I think 11 cents/kWh. $8.25 to completely charge my battery, which will then get me ~250 miles. The cost-per-mile is equivalent to getting over 125 mpg.


dabinat|root|parent|next|

I’ve been driving EVs for six years now and I do not have the ability to charge at home or work. It’s been a non-issue. I charge late at night and it’s about $0.18/kWh which is still way less than gas.

Obviously it’s more convenient if you can charge at home or work, but I disagree that such a thing is mandatory to own an EV.


coryrc|root|parent|prev|next|

The price usually varies over the day; in the morning (until ~10am IIRC) and late at night here in the Seattle area it's 14¢/kWh for supercharging and my residential electricity is around 11¢/kWh.

But, if you can't charge at work nor at home, EV car isn't worth it.


rstupek|root|parent|prev|next|

My electric plan has free evenings so I charge for free!

foobazgt|root|parent|next|

Ditto

IncreasePosts|root|parent|prev|next|

I'm surprised crypto bros haven't bought every house in your neighborhood

rstupek|root|parent|next|

It’s a Texas plan not specifically for a neighborhood

rconti|root|parent|prev|next|

Here in the bay area, my at home charging costs are very close to a supercharger. something like 35c vs 40c.

fuzzythinker|root|parent|next|

It's actually cheaper at supercharger, $.26 after midnight, but ~$.50 during off peak at home after all extra fees in SJ, even after selecting EV charging plan.

modeless|root|parent|next|

$.50/kWh? That's crazy. It's $0.22 in Palo Alto ($0.19 for the first 450 kWh/month). I didn't realize it was such a good deal compared to PG&E.

fuzzythinker|root|parent|next|

It was cheaper at home for a long time. But 1+ years ago, they kept jacking up the price for no apparent reason.

saagarjha|root|parent|next|

San Jose resident here, you shouldn't be paying that much. If you have a TOU plan it's something like 35¢/kWh off-peak and 50 or so during peak times. They do keep raising the prices for no reason but not that much (yet).

IncreasePosts|root|parent|prev|next|

From the article: GM is also updating its brand apps to allow customers to search for available Superchargers, check station status, initiate a charge, and pay for charging sessions. Tesla has said that non-Tesla owners would have to pay a little more to charge their vehicles than Tesla owners.

kwhitefoot|root|parent|prev|next|

In Europe Tesla offer a subscription that gives you the same prices as Teslas get. Otherwise you pay more. Of course Tesla then makes a profit on the subscription cost.

tencentshill|root|parent|prev|next|

It's in the article: "Tesla has said that non-Tesla owners would have to pay a little more to charge their vehicles than Tesla owners."

bradgessler|parent|prev|next|

Tesla bills themselves as an energy company. In theory, they could back their charging network with solar and battery storage and offer power cheaper/cleaner than competitors.

tensor|parent|prev|next|

Yeah, I can't see how it's great for Tesla other than I guess extra revenue from charging. But the infrastructure already is somewhat constrained, so yes there will be more lines now at superchargers.

On the other hand, I'm happy we're not heading down the path of shitty walled gardens of charging, eventually Tesla owners will also benefit from being able to charge more easily at 3rd party chargers. For humanity this is a good thing, and increases overall efficiency of infrastructure greatly.


MBCook|root|parent|next|

They had to open their chargers to get some of the benefits from that big bill a year or two ago (build back better?).

That may be why. In low use areas it may be a nice ROI.

I’ve heard in high use areas things could already be bad from the increase in Teslas sold and piling Fords, GMs, and Rivians in isn’t going to lighten the load any.


jauntywundrkind|root|parent|next|

Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, https://driveelectric.gov/news/new-cfi-funding-released

> This funding opportunity is made possible by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law’s signature EV charging investments: the $2.5 billion Charging and Fueling Infrastructure (CFI) Discretionary Grant Program and funds from the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) Formula Program that are set aside for strategic grants to states and local governments to deploy EV chargers.

It seems like Tesla's behavior has been much better in Europe, and I'm not sure what explains the discrepancy.


MBCook|root|parent|next|

They didn’t have a choice. My understand is the EU dictated all cars have the IEC Type 2(?) connector to sell, so Tesla complied. No mess like the US.

The US had no such law and has refused to make one. We’ve gone with the traditional carrot approach where they wouldn’t get funds to built more superchargers without doing this due to the infrastructure law. But it was their choice and they didn’t have to.


rpmisms|root|parent|next|

Seems like the US free market approach is winning yet again, where the superior product is becoming the standard, and the inventor of the superior product is profiting.

MBCook|root|parent|next|

I don’t know.

They could have given away their connector 10 years ago and saved everyone a huge and expensive mess. But that’s in their interest. So instead dozens of companies wasted huge amounts of monies installing a bunch of cables that all have to be replaced.

Or the government could have seen that they had a better option and simply taken it and said it was the standard. But of course that wouldn’t be the American way.

So we suffered through a giant mess instead wasting time and money.

Tesla chose not to fix this until the damage was done and their benefit was small enough to be worth giving up.


olyjohn|root|parent|next|

The problem is that it seems like people who believe in the free market as the solution to everything are the same ones who work hard to monopolize and destroy it.

partitioned|parent|prev|next|

Most places most chargers are empty.

recursive|prev|next|

I still haven't received my free Ford adapter. Delivery date keeps getting pushed back due to "supplier" issues. I'm pretty sure the supplier is Tesla, and they're slow-rolling it for some reason.

johns|parent|next|

Reserved mine 2/29, received yesterday.

jsight|parent|prev|next|

I think Tesla claims to be making ~8k/week now. IIRC, Ford has >200k cars out there and Rivian >100k.

placatedmayhem|parent|prev|next|

While I have no information here, I'd bet/conspiracy theorize that Tesla is looking to maintain exclusivity/low-ish congestion of its Supercharger sites for as long as possible, and using its position as a supplier of NACS adapters to do that. Demand for and purchasing of Tesla cars has gone down considerably[1], and I'd assert that Superchargers, which have historically been a positive for Tesla, catching a reputation for being "busy" would hurt Tesla even more. There are already regularly lines for charging at some of the busier Supercharger sites.

[1] https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q1-2024-ev-sales/


LeoPanthera|root|parent|next|

Just like how the Hyperloop was a scheme to prevent development of trains. Tesla doesn't try to make the best product, they just try to hurt the competition.

robertlagrant|root|parent|next|

Supercharger is the best product, and without Tesla we wouldn't be half as far as we are with car electrification. I don't get the ludicrousness of statements such as yours.

LeoPanthera|root|parent|next|

Then I will try to defend myself.

Superchargers were the best product, yes. But then Tesla fired its entire supercharger team, demonstrating how little they care about it right now. They've been simultaneously dragging their feet on allowing third parties access to the network, as originally promised.

The Hyperloop was indeed intended to stop California extending its rail network - Elon himself admitted as such: https://x.com/parismarx/status/1571628269555826688


mensetmanusman|root|parent|next|

Hyper loop failed to stop California from building their network. They have a few hundred feet of rail added I believe.

Animats|prev|next|

Here's ChargePoint's interoperability lab.[1] They're not sure how the connectors and interfaces will end up, so their charging system is modular and field-upgradable. They bring in various cars and check out the charging process.

[1] https://youtu.be/UbKigyNpNzo?t=1920


jes5199|prev|next|

I own a Chevy Bolt, and have no luck actually figuring out how to buy this adaptor

sanj|parent|next|

this one?

https://ev-lectron.com/products/lectron-vortex-plug-tesla-su...


jes5199|root|parent|next|

no, the GM-branded one that won't void my warrantee

evanelias|root|parent|next|

They made it ridiculously convoluted to order. You need to use the awful MyChevrolet app, and click your initials in the corner. From there, select "Public Charging". After it loads, there should be a Tesla-related option to click towards the top. (If it's missing, force-kill the app and relaunch and try again. I had to do that, even though I was already running the latest version of the app.)

Next you'll need to enter a credit card, and then X out of the confirmation screen. Finally you'll get a link to order the adapter, which you can only access in a web view inside the MyChevrolet app.

The web view will show multiple discount codes regarding parts, but none of the %-off ones do anything for this order, only the free shipping one works on this. Also don't click the outermost X during the order process, since this will close the web view and make you start over. At times you'll need to click an "inner" X below that. It's one of the worst order interfaces I've ever seen.

Oh, and the first time I actually made it through the full checkout process, it gave me an error and said to try again later. But it wouldn't let me try again later (couldn't resubmit my order/cart) so I had to start from scratch for like the third time.

Also the adapter is already on backorder, so there's no estimation of when this will actually ship.

I think I'm never buying a GM car ever again.


jes5199|root|parent|next|

thank you. I was able to follow these instructions. One must wonder how they managed to sell out of these adapters while making it so difficult to place an order.

It asked me if I wanted to fill out a customer satisfaction survey, but the form to enter my phone number was broken so I was not able to.


jes5199|root|parent|next|

their rewards program login is also broken, and I tried talking to their support chatbot and it told me to try during business hours and disconnected?? none of this inspires confidence

evanelias|root|parent|next|

Yeah, pretty much every single interaction I've ever had with GM/Chevy has gone this way :/ Feels like it's either an absolutely staggering level of incompetence, or the world's most effective team of sadists over there.

cmrdporcupine|root|parent|prev|next|

Sigh. GM. I was so happy with my Volt. Was going to keep it until it rusted away. Until my wife totaled it last Friday. Now I'm shopping for a new car with the measly amount insurance will pay me out. And... what a sad state of affairs with GM. Discontinued the Bolt, and never evolved that line further, and the only thing in their lineup now are big honkin' trucks and SUVs. And I hear they're dropping Android Auto / CarPlay support.

Way to blow their early mostly decent efforts in EV territory.

I'd pick up a second hand Bolt if it wasn't for the fact that the fast charging situation with them is... not competitive.


ellisv|root|parent|next|

Do you need to fast charge often?

cmrdporcupine|root|parent|next|

I barely drive these days since WFH. But when I do more than go get groceries or school drop off, it's for a 7-10 hour drive for a ski trip to Vermont or Quebec. Which would have to involve fast chargers.

Granted, I could probably just drive my wife's Outlander PHEV in that case. But seeing as she just totaled my Volt...


jes5199|root|parent|next|

the 2021 Bolt that I drive could probably do that trip with a single 45-minute charge stop in the middle. I know that’s slow compared to a Tesla, but it ends up being fine most of the time

NewJazz|root|parent|prev|next|

Honestly in your situation I'd wait it out and try to work with one car. The new Ioniq 5 models will have NACS, and plenty of other good things to look forward to for other cars.

windexh8er|prev|next|

Please... DO NOT BUY A LECTRON ADAPTER mentioned in this article. This company is shady and has absolutely horrendous customer service, along with products that do not work and are not authorized at Tesla Super Chargers.

How do I know? I bought one. The first issue I had was they claimed the unit was available to ship when I purchased, but did not ship even though they sent me a tracking number that simply stated "package hasn't been dropped off at UPS" when looked up. When I inquired they said it would be shipping "this week" for 3 weeks. I had also paid for expedited shipping and the company refused to refund this. After collecting screenshots I told them I would be reversing the charge through my CC company. That same day the product was shipped.

Then I experienced the design issues with the product first hand that everyone has now beaten to death on the Internet. Next I spent another two weeks trying to get the company to refund my money and take back their product. I ended up reversing the charge and only after I did that did they issue me an RMA to send the unit back, because now they wanted it back since my CC company reviewed all of my screenshots of their claims and reversed the charge.

Do not waste your time with Lectron!


talldatethrow|prev|next|

I think as soon as thieves realize cars that are plugged in with drivers inside waiting are not able to drive away without unplugging, there will be a huge surge in crime against people charging their EVs. Then there will be a large surge in people going back to complaining about EVs having too many drawbacks.

At least at a gas station I'm only there for 5 minutes, it's not at the back of some dark parking lot, and I can start the car and drive away if I had to.


epistasis|parent|next|

I live in a fairly high crime area, but I can't imagine this being true in any way. What sort of crime are you thinking? Standard mugging? So many easier targets in other areas, plus the cars record everything, and there are usually lots of others charging.

The worst experience I have had while charging late at night in a remote area was being accosted by an over-enthusiastic Tesla fan who just wanted to talk talk talk about the car and where it had gone. That was very unpleasant, but certainly not criminal.


teitoklien|parent|prev|next|

No

Industry is already figuring out magsafe like solutions for Tesla Car chargers, it’s something else that Tesla is suing them for it lol.

Also, considering car chargers are likely to have many cars being charged, thieves would rather find it easier to steal parked out in the open cars outside people’s homes, than car charging spots which can easily be targeted by police to catch thieves red handed.

Not to mention, you’ll see more Magsafe charger implementations for Cars soon.

[see this](https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/2/24212160/tesla-evject-laws...)


blamazon|parent|prev|next|

EVs are often festooned with cameras which is a disincentive to opportunistic crime. At fast charging stations there's usually other people sitting in their cars which is another disincentive.

saagarjha|parent|prev|next|

Uh, you can do the same with your EV? Nothing stopping you from unplugging and driving away if you want.

asynchronous|prev|next|

Most of the comments here seem to be suffering from amnesia as to why Tesla is even opening their charging network- remember, the Feds literally begged them to and paid them money to do so.

As a Tesla owner, I see this as a straight up loss in nearly every category. I never have used a third party charger, so even if those chargers move to the NACS standard it won’t improve my life in any way.

I’ve already had to deal with Rivian or Ford owners taking up several stalls at the Superchargers (because they weren’t designed to fit correctly, and Rivian drivers are incompetent) and taking over twice as long to charge as Teslas are able to.


moomoo11|prev|

Hot take. Tesla supercharger network is better quality and an actual product compared to their rattle box cheap ass cars. Not worth it at the price I bought, and only good as leases imo now that they’re cheap.

I am an OG in the sense that I had FSD at $2k and have seen the evolution of “full self driving”. It sucks. It’s a gimmick that I would not trust with the lives of my family. I trust myself enough to use it when it was just me driving. Good for highway driving in middle lane, but other cars do that as well..

Also in my friend group it was just me who had FSD nobody else had it.

I sold my Tesla long ago when Elon start short circuiting his brain with brainrot.

However the prevalence and reliability of supercharger is unmatched.


Spivak|parent|

Would be an interesting pivot for Tesla to start as a car company, jumpstart the EV market in the US, sell the badge to another automaker and supply them batteries, and become the EV gas station

It certainly makes more sense for the name.