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tosh | 75 comments

agubelu|next|

Something I would have loved to see, especially in this era of AI, is improvements to the ATC system. But it seems we're stuck with the one from FS2020, which in turn is largely the same it was 20 years ago.

Not everyone can or wants to go to VATSIM for realistic ATC coverage, but the default one is just dreadful. Obvious phraseology mistakes, happily vectoring you towards terrain, asking you to descend 20k ft. in 2 minutes, and the only way to communicate with it is via a list of pre-determined options.


jillesvangurp|parent|next|

There are some third party companies working on LLM based ATC. It's a hard problem but that's mostly because there are a lot of rules and regional differences. Which is something that LLMs are actually good at making sense of. The new multi modal OSS models are only going to make this easier.

MS with their investment in OpenAI is actually well positioned to do something here as well. So, it's odd that they haven't.


polishdude20|prev|next|

It would be so cool to use Microsoft's "earth copy" for stuff other than just flight sim. They say it's the most accurate representation of the earth ever. Wonder if you can do some interesting science with that.

gadtfly|parent|next|

MSFS 2020's Earth is unbelievably good from the air, but it (understandably) does not look great and is sometimes not entirely physically coherent up close at the surface (outside of airports and a limited set of bespoke areas).

There's also some crazy errors that are visible from the air, like many rivers being raised up hundreds of feet[0], and many bridges being solid underneath[1].

I always assumed one of primary things in a sequel would be to train an even bigger and better satellite maps -> 3D scenery model, especially one that understood a wider (and better-localized) variety of building configurations, so we'll see.

[0] https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/river-altitude-raised-w...

[1] https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/fix-photogrammetry-brid...


arnaudsm|parent|prev|next|

"earth copy" is just marketing lingo. Models are approximations made for a specific goal at a time. You cannot build a model that is both good for gaming and meteorology.

99% of that engine value is procedural terrain and graphical shaders. It looks great but has no scientifical value.

Just like the "digital twin" hype train, cool simulations have fancy graphics, useful simulations don't.


ramesh31|root|parent|next|

>You cannot build a model that is both good for gaming and meteorology.

This was the prevailing wisdom in AI before generalized transformers as well. We're rapidly moving toward black box hyperintelligent AGI.


arnaudsm|root|parent|next|

I was comparing expert systems here, not emergent ones

nradov|root|parent|prev|next|

There has been zero motion towards true AGI so far, hyperintelligent or otherwise.

kylebenzle|root|parent|next|

So true! I think a lot of people, even here on HN, get confused by the marketing term, "AI".

freetanga|root|parent|next|

Authentic Ignorance, I guess…

ThrowawayB7|parent|prev|next|

That used to exist as a product called Microsoft ESP. It got sold off to Lockheed Martin when the Flight Simulator project was shut down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Flight_Simulator#Loc...


jinushaun|parent|prev|next|

I would love a real world driving sim. I don’t really care for driving on race tracks, but real roads.

rjh29|root|parent|next|

American Truck Simulator has 300 cities and it takes 3 hours to drive across the map in real time. It's probably the biggest world in a driving game.

knodi123|root|parent|prev|next|

I've always said, a version of Grand Theft Auto, but with a real map of [your city], and with cops that enforce driving rules, would be a priceless tool for teaching young drivers.

After I passed driver's ed, I still spent the next two years getting lost within a few miles of my house. But drop me in any alley in GTA5 and I can get to any other spot in a pretty short path (although I confess it often does involve dangerous jumps).


wolpoli|root|parent|next|

Midtown Madness 1 & 2 are most similar to what you are looking for.

dacryn|root|parent|prev|next|

it's one of those things I'd do as a millionaire.

Some people would buy boats, private planes, art, ... I would hire a team to replicate my child neighbourhood perfectly in a gran turismo or preferably GTA 5 engine lol. You'd get pretty far with a million USD in the modding community


KeplerBoy|root|parent|next|

Lol, if I were a millionaire I'd probably buy half a house somewhere kind of nice.

jillesvangurp|root|parent|prev|next|

American Truck simulator comes close. But something like that bootstrapped of open street maps could be awesome.

pedalpete|parent|prev|next|

We used to be in this space, and with Ayvri/Doarama - which was a 3D virtual world but not a flight simulator, it was used by paragliders to replay flights, commercial drone operators, some defense, transportation planning (trains, maybe others as well), etc etc.

We approached Microsoft when we were selling the company, and the response we got was "you're too close to work we're doing for us to even look at you or talk to you". I assumed that meant they are building out a digital twin, with capabilities to run in a browser at high speed with high resolution (which we did). That was 3 years ago. I'm surprised we haven't seen something from them yet.


7thpower|root|parent|next|

It is Microsoft after all. They are quick to put out press releases and imply or even promise functionality, but you can spend your entire life waiting for them to actually deliver.

WillPostForFood|parent|prev|next|

The lighting, clouds, weather are great and make it look beautiful. Nature looks great in the game. But in terms of urban areas, particularly buildings and roads it is much much worse than Google Maps/Earth. You also see the seams in the construct in places like coastlines.

squeaky-clean|parent|prev|next|

That's the goal of Nvidia's "Earth 2" plans, which the article mentions very briefly.

NikolaNovak|root|parent|next|

It's Neil Stephenson's snowcrash come to life :-)

a2128|parent|prev|next|

Mostly military simulations and training, probably

b212|parent|prev|next|

Imagine GTA on that map. Wondering how many years away are we from this.

ddoolin|prev|next|

This is the first I'm even hearing of MSFS 2024, I figured 2020 would just be a continuous WIP for a long time to come. I used it for practice but haven't dusted the equipment off in awhile, but this sounds like some nice improvements. 2020 was already pretty astounding in its quality and the leap from the existing flight sims.

lttlrck|parent|next|

2020 is astonishing in VR. I get the same melancholy I do on a real plane and can fly for hours sightseeing out the window. There is also a real sense of peril.

It's quite the experience. I can't wait for 2024.


polishdude20|root|parent|next|

What sort of headset do you use? What's your graphics card and CPU setup?

I've used a rift S with my 1070 TI and it struggles a bit!


outworlder|root|parent|next|

Unfortunately, a 1070 TI will struggle a bit even without VR. It is 7 years old at this point.

nottommo|root|parent|prev|next|

Why do you feel melancholy?

steveoscaro|root|parent|next|

Maybe it's something like the French saying Le Mal du Pays

"Le Mal du Pays is usually translated as 'homesickness,' or 'melancholy. ' If you put a finer point on it, it's more like 'a groundless sadness called forth in a person's heart by a pastoral landscape"


ehnto|root|parent|prev|next|

I get the same, it's more like a contented melancholy.

Not sad, just locked into the moment, with a certain understated freedom of mind.

You're not smiling or frowing, just existing, taking it in.


grujicd|root|parent|prev|next|

Do you get any motion sickness?

lordofgibbons|root|parent|next|

Sim games are perfect for avoiding motion sickness. You'll typically get those when your avatar walks around. This is why in first person games, you'll teleport places instead of walking in VR

dybber|prev|next|

My biggest issue with Flight Simulator 2020 doesn’t seem to be addressed.

It contains tutorials on how to control the planes, but no storyline, no built in missions. If you are motivated by a narrative, this is not a game for you. It only does the simulation, but doesn’t really help people get into the game through a kind of narrative.

I have no desire to learn all the details of an aircrafts controls. I might have that, if there was a reason for me to learn those things, as a motivating story that would drag me in. I think it’s an enormous missed opportunity in terms of making the game appeal to a wider audience.

I still hope it will be there in 2024 edition, but this interview didn’t give me much hope.


ehnto|parent|next|

I think that is the whole sell of 2024? It is still a self guided story but, career mode you have to start as a student, earn your hours and licenses in order to take on bigger and more interesting jobs etc. Eventually you buy your own planes, which enables you to take on bigger jobs and so on.

So in theory from what I have seen, your story is that of a career pilot, with intro cutscenes and voice acting etc. This has all been shown already.

If you find it most fun to haul cargo, your story is that you will go get the licences, grind the smaller jobs. For more casual fun experience you might choose to specialise in agriculture jobs which are going to be more engaging/shorter.

The truth is though, it is a simulator, and flying takes fooreeever. You can't make casual flying and flight sim meet in the middle without throwing away 90% of the flying experience, which is level flight at altitude on your way to a destination.

This is why although I am an aviation fan, and a train fan, I don't play either sims. I have not got 2-8hrs to hurry up and wait.


dacryn|root|parent|next|

jup, eurotruck simulator, but in the air, would be amazing

blue_cookeh|parent|prev|next|

This is already confirmed as at least somewhat implemented. There are missions for things like search and rescue, farming, and oil rigs. There's also a new avatar mode to enable doing virtual walk arounds and the like.

https://msfsaddons.com/2024/09/19/heres-how-the-career-mode-...


rldjbpin|parent|prev|next|

mfs 2020 seems to do what it says on the label - be a simulator.

the entire point of a simulator is to give you the sandbox to do whatever you want while having as near of a realistic experience as possible.

if they try to add these things to the mix, i assume it is to make it more accessible to game pass audience, who might not shell out the full price just to try it out.

for many who love to play this genre, especially content creators, instead of expecting the game to give a storyline, they make their own! like for me it would be trying the 787 in the air routes where the landing strips do not support large planes for a hypothetical scenario, for example.

it not quite the same, but your own creativity is what give games like minecraft so much longevity. on the other hand, once you finish a "career mode" (as proposed for mfs 2024), you may not be motivated to restart.


abenga|parent|prev|next|

Is Microsoft Flight Simulator meant to be that kind of game?

> I have no desire to learn all the details of an aircrafts controls.

Then there are different games where this is not expected. I have always thought MFS is meant to be as close as possible to true flight, to such an extent it can be used to practice actual routes.


lagrange77|prev|next|

2024? I haven't even finished the printed concorde manual from FS2000.

actuallyalys|prev|next|

“The team built a “digital twin” of the Earth, much like would-be metaverse companies want to do.” Was this actually a goal of “would-be metaverse companies”?

My impression is that they were much more focused on highly abstracted spaces designed to facilitate work and social interactions.


mitthrowaway2|parent|next|

Yes, I pictured the metaverse as more of a Minecraft type of thing. I don't think it's a good comparison, unless MSFS wants to become a MMO experience... "Runway permission wait simulator 2024!"

tadfisher|parent|prev|next|

This might be thinly-veiled shade tossed at "Earth 2", ostensibly a metaverse company that sells real estate in a non-existent game for fake money (i mean cryptocurrency).

actuallyalys|root|parent|next|

I read the article more as trying to save face over this outlet or reporter previously being credulous about the metaverse, but perhaps I misread it. I'm not familiar with this reporter or outlet, so I could very well be wrong.

milleramp|prev|next|

Looks like they also have added career mode in 2024. https://msfsaddons.com/2024/09/19/heres-how-the-career-mode-...

rkagerer|prev|next|

Looks awesome, shame it streams from the Cloud instead of running locally.

troad|parent|next|

MSFS 2020 takes up hundreds of gigabytes and takes many hours to install, so this is likely to be an improvement.

TiredOfLife|root|parent|next|

MSFS 2020 also streams from cloud

mplewis|parent|prev|next|

How would you be able to run a game of this scale locally?

jmugan|prev|next|

When MS Flight Simulator 2020 came out, I wrote a blog post about how these kinds of virtual worlds will be used to train our robot helpers. I'm looking forward to playing this new one. https://medium.com/@jmugan/microsoft-flight-simulator-2020-i...

vunderba|parent|next|

Yep, this idea was actually explored by researchers using GTA to train self driving cars back in 2018.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/grand-theft-auto-v-used-by-res...


0x1ceb00da|prev|next|

Just 160 airports? I remember mfs98 having thousands of airports.

Scramblejams|parent|next|

There are over 35,000 in the game, they're mostly procedurally generated with some light editing to fix any major issues. 160 are handcrafted.

jillesvangurp|root|parent|next|

This is actually one of the strengths in X-Plane; there's a scenery gateway where users can submit custom airports or tweak existing ones. They started that many years ago and at this point there are many thousands of user contributed airports with carefully modeled 3D scenery. With every patch release they bundle what's on the scenery gateway and things get better.

Most airports that people care about are modeled to a pretty high standard at this point. Even the tiny, remote ones. It's not just about making them look pretty but also about ensuring signage, taxi ways, etc. is where it's supposed to be. It's all licensed under the Creative Commons license too (CC BY 3.0); so MS could make use of this. It's one of the things I always liked about X-plane, the third party add on ecosystem is great.

And of course there are commercial scenery plugins as well. Orbx makes scenery for both X-plane and MS Flight Simulator. Which despite the awesome scenery that they have out of the box still requires stuff like that if you really want the best looking scenery. The default scenery is amazing of course; but it has its limitations.

I've not used that personally but it looks awesome. For X-plane, simheaven.com (very detailed open streetmap based scenery) combined with free satellite scenery generated using Ortho4XP gets things close enough. Not quite to the level of MS Flight Simulator but it's not that bad. And free.

With Orbx it actually looks comparable. That's actually a good way to compare the two simulators if you care about the visuals because the only difference would be the rendering engine; the content is essentially the same with orbx and much better than what comes out of the box with either simulation. There are some videos on youtube comparing the two side by side. They both look great. But also very different.

IMHO MS has an edge with things like clouds and weather. But it can also look a bit over saturated and slightly too pretty. X-plane is shooting more for realism. And part of that is that visibility usually just isn't really that great from a plane. And they have gradually upgraded a lot of things. E.g. the clouds and weather just got a major upgrade in a patch release and the physics based rendering in v12 is a big step forward and they are still doing major updates to things like HDR and cockpit rendering (which is a hard problem because of the way human eyes compensate for the huge dynamic range difference inside and outside).


deanCommie|prev|next|

One thing I've always wished Microsoft would do with every version of Flight Simulator but especially this one is have an "Arcade flying" mode.

I want to see the hyper-realistic rendered world in as high resolution as possible.

I want to fly around the planet.

But I don't want to be limited to the detailed specifics (and speeds!) of real life planes.

Why can't we have a mode to make a plane as easy to fly as it is in GTA5. Or "superman" mode where I don't even have a plane, and I can just move around at (almost) any speed [i'm sure rendering would become a problem]


outworlder|parent|next|

Rendering _and streaming_ is already a problem at jet speeds.

Given that you can jump to any point in the planet, I don't think it's a high priority for them.


NikolaNovak|parent|prev|next|

Google Earth desktop basically gives you that with even better Earth model. Last I checked you could enable a super simple airplane mode that even worked with joysticks. It always felt like future to me :)

nodesocket|parent|prev|next|

They are adding a walk around mode which is external to aircraft. Also while flying, you can adjust the simulation rate dramatically to decrease time to destination’s (supported in 2020 as well).

gedy|prev|next|

With the cloud based rendering, I wonder if they will change this to a subscription.

I hope not, as a greatly prefer the one time cost model with games.


noitpmeder|parent|next|

God I hope not ... Instant turn off

nodesocket|prev|next|

Related: An excellent and thorough video showing all the details from the devs and up to date information about FS2024 including gameplay footage.

https://youtu.be/CVNFLzp8TL8?si=AW2as-W73S79tDN5


stanislavb|prev|next|

I've wanted to give MSFS a go for a few years now. Unfortunately, good luck if you use OSX devices only ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

bpye|parent|next|

Xbox game streaming?

stanislavb|root|parent|next|

Thanks. Yes, I learned about that today.

zooq_ai|prev|next|

How TF Flight Simulator is not on VR is the biggest mystery to me. It is the most obvious killer app to showcase both the game and VR headset.

theYipster|parent|next|

It is on VR, has been for years, and yes, it’s pretty much a killer app (imho, the only killer app.)

wk_end|root|parent|next|

VR FS2020 is so good that it made me get a pilot's license.

mulmen|root|parent|next|

I’m very curious about this. How do you manipulate flight controls with the headset on? Do you go by feel or is there a matching representation in the virtual world?

w_for_wumbo|prev|

Maybe I'm being simplistic of overly optimistic - but I would think that there would be a massive opportunity for collaboration with fluid dynamics to simulate and 'fast-forward' the weather to see likely impacts.

It might not be correct the first time, but as we map the changes from prediction against the reality, we could adjust for factors that we hadn't considered.

It seems to me that we shouldn't be too far from accurate weather prediction and perhaps with huge amount of data capture having a digital twin of the planet in which we have enough confidence in to model potential climate impacts of policies, products could allow us to have robust discussions around where we're headed and what paths we could take to adapt or overcome the impacts we're already facing.


epgui|parent|next|

That simply doesn’t work, for the same reason we can’t even model three massive bodies interacting with each other via gravity, which is a much much simpler problem.

carabiner|parent|prev|next|

You mean building a model of the atmosphere? That's what numerical weather models do and they've existed for decades. There are physical ones like ECMWF and newer ML-based ones like ECMWF-AIFS which uses neural networks.

This is quite a comment.


ekianjo|parent|prev|

predicting weather beyond a very short amount of time is a myth or a delusion. its a chaotic system just like any fluid that goes out of the newtonian zone.